Interview with Toni Blackman recorded on August 20, 2020 in Prospect Park

0:00 - Toni references MC Sha-Rock multiple times in the interview, so I begin the remix with Sha-Rock’s best-known recording, “That’s The Joint” (1980) by the Funky 4+1. The instrumental groove in “That’s the Joint” is an interpolation of “Rescue Me” by A Taste of Honey (1980), and I use a break from that song under Toni’s speaking rather than the Funky 4+1 so that it does not compete for listener attention.

2:15 - When Toni speaks about studying jazz in college, she mentions buying Thelonious Monk on vinyl, so I use Monk’s solo recording of “Round Midnight” (1968).

2:38 - This leads into a discussion of how important it is to spread musical knowledge by word of mouth. Toni tells the story of a young man she worked with who thought that rap always has to be aggressive and in-your-face. Toni corrected this misapprehension using the example of Bahamadia, a female emcee with a low-key and even-tempered flow. For this section, I use Bahamadia’s song “Uknowhowwedu” (1996). I continue the Monk samples over the Bahamadia track, because they fit together wonderfully.

3:41 - Toni recollects being mentored by the musician and producer Ezra Greer, and all the formative and influential artists he played for her, including Alice Coltrane. Toni tells me that her mother had listened to Alice Coltrane, and that Toni had not thought much of the music at the time, but that Green helped her hear the album differently. For this segment, I use Coltrane’s “Journey in Satchidananda” (1970).

4:52 - Toni also describes how Green expanded her horizons by putting a Louis Armstrong sample over a beat, helping her realize that rap does not need to sound like Run-DMC. Here I combine the beat from “Sucker MCs” by Run-DMC (1984) with Louis Armstrong’s recording of “Lazy River” (1931).

5:32 - When Toni discusses the larger relationship between hip-hop and jazz, she references Jack Wilkins’ recording of Freddie Hubbard’s “Red Clay” (1973), a jazz recording that fans of 1990s rap will recognize from A Tribe Called Quest prominently sampling it in “Sucka N***a” (1993). I lay in Wilkins’ track under Toni recounting how her love of music made her study radio and want to be a DJ, and that she was turned off by the male domination of the field, as well as its low entry-level pay. I loop her saying “Oh hell no” partially to emphasize her rejection, and partially to fill out the phrase.

6:50 - Martin Urbach told me in our first interview that he does not believe that hip-hop needs music education (though music ed badly needs hip-hop.) I ask Toni to react to this statement. She disagrees; in her view, hip-hop needs the institutions of music education to preserve its history and traditions, since we can not rely on the commercial rap industry for that. Here I use the instrumental from “History” by Mos Def ft. Talib Kweli (2009), produced by J Dilla, with its iconic samples of “Two Lovers’ History” by Mary Wells (1968).

8:57 - I ask Toni to give her thoughts about current commercial rap. She brings up the controversy over “WAP” by Cardi B and Megan Thee Stallion (2020). She does not object to the song per se, but she does wish that all the energy that people have expended arguing about it would have been more constructively redirected toward promoting lesser-known and artistically superior female artists. I had considered putting the instrumental to “WAP” in here, but decide that it would be more appropriate to bring in two of the artists who Toni mentioned as deserving more attention: “GPS” by Mumu Fresh (2018), and “Goddess Gang” by Sa-Roc (2020).

13:04 - For Toni’s discussion of the importance of mental health support for developing artists, I use two of her own songs: “Why Worry” (2019) and ”Invisible Woman” (feat. Rema & MC Yallah) (2018). The therapeutic aspect of Toni’s work infuses music education with techniques from music therapy. I ask Toni to propose an ideal seventh grade general music curriculum, and she has some excellent ideas about teaching students to be comfortable in their skins using dance training and drama training. She also suggests that we teach students how to manage jealousy and self-criticism, and that we teach the nuts and bolts of the music business.

16:10 - Finally, I ask Toni what knowledge of hip-hop she would want educators to be equipped with. She brings up MC Sha-Rock again, so I re-introduce “That’s the Joint” and “Rescue Me” briefly. Toni then moves into a discussion of foundational hip-hop history, the DJ Kool Herc and Afrika Bambaataa era. For this section, I use “Apache” by the Incredible Bongo Band (1973), which Herc has called “The National Anthem of hip-hop.”

17:38 - I close with another segment of “That’s the Joint.”